>> BRAUDE: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," FROM THE BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS SHAKING UP ITS PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY SCHEDULE, LOOKING TO PUSH BACK THE LONG-TIME FIRST-IN-THE-NATION NEW HAMPSHIRE PRIMARY AND IOWA CAUCUS, AND MOVE UP THE ELECTIONS IN SOUTH CAROLINA, GEORGIA AND MICHIGAN.

FORMER NEW HAMPSHIRE STATE SENATOR JIM SPLAINE AND BLACK VOTERS MATTER CO-FOUNDER LATOSHA BROWN JOIN ME ON THAT.

WE'LL ALSO GET AN ON-THE-GROUND UPDATE FROM LATOSHA ON THE GEORGIA RUN-OFF ELECTION, AS VOTING JUST ENDED SECONDS AGO.

THEN, GOOD NEWS FOR ONE OF MY FAVORITE CAUSES: THE FOUR-DAY WORK WEEK.

A LOCAL ECONOMIST JOINS ME ON WHAT SHE LEARNED FROM A MULTI-COMPANY TRIAL-RUN, ALONG WITH THE CHIEF STRATEGY OFFICER OF KICKSTARTER, ONE OF THE TRIAL PARTICIPANTS.

♪♪ >> BRAUDE: ONCE AGAIN, IT ALL COMES DOWN TO GEORGIA, WHERE THE SENATE RACE IS ENDING IN A RUN-OFF FOR THE SECOND TIME IN TWO YEARS, WITH CONTROL OF THE SENATE HANGING IN THE BALANCE.

KIND OF.

UNLIKE IN 2020, THE SPLIT HEADING INTO THIS RUN-OFF IS 50-49 IN FAVOR OF DEMOCRATS, NOT REPUBLICANS.

SO, WITH VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS ACTING AS TIE-BREAKER, THERE'S NO CHANCE REPUBLICANS WILL END UP WITH THE MAJORITY.

IF REPUBLICAN CHALLENGER AND FORMER N.F.L.

STAR HERSCHEL WALKER WINS, THE TWO PARTIES WILL HAVE TO SHARE POWER, AND FIND A WAY TO SPLIT CONTROL OF THE SENATE'S COMMITTEES.

AND IF INCUMBENT DEMOCRAT RAPHAEL WARNOCK WINS, HIS PARTY WILL HAVE FULL CONTROL.

LAST MINUTE POLLING IS GIVING WARNOCK A SLIGHT ADVANTAGE, BUT THIS MAN COULD STILL BE THE NEXT SENATOR FROM GEORGIA.

>> DON'T KNOW IF YOU KNOW, BUT VAMPIRES ARE SOME COOL PEOPLE, ARE THEY NOT?

BUT LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING THAT I FOUND OUT: A WEREWOLF CAN KILL A VAMPIRE.

DID YOU KNOW THAT?

I NEVER KNEW THAT.

SO, I DON'T WANT TO BE A VAMPIRE ANYMORE.

I WANT TO BE A WEREWOLF.

>> BRAUDE: I THOUGHT HE WANTED TO BE A U.S.

SENATOR.

AS FOR WARNOCK?

HE'S JUST HOPING WALKER GETS A CHANCE TO RELIVE HIS GLORY DAYS.

AND HE WILL NEED THOSE SKILLS BECAUSE COME TUESDAY WE'RE GONNA SEND HIM RUNNING BACK TO TEXAS.

>> BRAUDE: TEXAS BEING WHERE WALKER LISTED HIS PRIMARY ADDRESS ON HIS TAXES.

MY NEXT GUEST HAS BEEN WORKING HARD TO MAKE SURE THAT'S WHERE HE ENDS UP, TOO.

I'M JOINED NOW BY LATOSHA BROWN, CO-FOUNDER OF BLACK VOTERS MATTER.

>> Braude: IT'S GREAT DO SEE YOU.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, JIM.

>> Braude: WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DOING IN GEORGIA LEADING UP TO TODAY?

>> WE'VE BEEN WORKING, DOING A NUMBER OF THINGS.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, I JUST GOT OFF THE BUS A FEW MINUTES AGO, GOING BACK TO A POLLING SITE.

IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE REALLY RECOGNIZE WHAT IS HAPPENING THIS ELECTION CYCLE.

THERE HAVE BEEN SOME CHANGES SINCE THE LAST ELECTION AND IN 2021, AND THE FIRST ELECTION AND THIS RUNOFF.

THE FIRST CHANGES CAME FROM THE SB202 BILL.

WE HAD EIGHT WEEKS TO BE ABLE TO VOTE FOR THE RUNOFF ELECTION, AND THAT HAS BEEN DUNG DRUN CATED TO ONLY FOUR WEEKS.

WE'VE BEEN CANVASSING AND CARAVANING, AND WE MADE MILLIONS OF CALLS TO REACH VOTERS AND LET THEM KNOW HOW CRITICAL THIS ELECTION IS AND SOME OF THE CHANGES RESULTING FROM THAT SB202 BILL.

>> Braude: YOU AND I TALKED WHEN SOME OF THE CHANGES WERE MADE, AND YOU AND I WERE CONVINCED IT WAS TO SUPPRESS THE VOTING, BUT BASED ON THE EARLY NUMBERS, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

>> THERE HAS BEEN AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF ONGOING WORK TO ACTUALLY HAPPEN, TO LITERALLY BE ABLE TO INCREASE THAT VOTE.

BUT I DO WANT YOU TO RECOGNIZE THERE HAS BEEN SOME IMPACT, RIGHT?

THAT SB202 BILL HAS HAD IMPACT.

IN 2021, THERE WERE 1.2 MILLION PEOPLE WHO PARTICIPATED IN THE MAIL-IN BALLOTING, AND THIS WHERE THERE WERE ONLY 1.2 MILLION, THAT MEANS THOSE WHO PREVIOUSLY DID NOT THIS TIME.

EVEN AS I'M GOING AROUND FOR MAIL-IN BOXES, IT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND A MAIL-IN VOTING BOX.

I THINK WHILE WE'RE LOOKING AT THIS RECORD-BREAKING, SOME OF IT IS LITERALLY ESCHEWED IN MANY WAYS BECAUSE YOU HAD IT OVER AR PERIOD OF TIME.

YOU HAD A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME, AND NOW THAT TIME HAS BEEN DRUNK TRUNCATED.

>> Braude: I HATE WHEN PEOPLE, WHEN THE POLLS HAVE CLOSED, SAY TO PEOPLE LIKE YOU, WHO DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO WIN.

BUT HAVING SAID THAT, WHO DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO WIN?

>> I THINK WARNOCK HAS IT.

I THINK FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

ONE, THERE IS A BACKLASH IN THE STATE, WHAT HAS DRIVEN HAS BEEN THERE, NOT ONLY TO THE VOTER SUPPRESSION LAWS, BUT, ALSO, THERE IS A CERTAIN -- WALKER'S CAMPAIGN HAS BEEN INSULTING, PARTICULARLY TO AFRICAN-AMERICAN VOTERS.

I THINK THERE IS A BACKLASH RELATED TO THAT, THAT TRUMP WOULD CHERRY PICK A CANDIDATE FROM TEXAS, BRING HIM TO GEORGIA, HAVE NO SUBSTANCE AND SPEAK TO NONE OF THE ISSUES, AND, THREE, THAT PEOPLE KNOW THIS IS A CRITICAL ELECTION AND THE POWER BALANCE ACTUALLY LIES ON GEORGIA.

ALL OF THOSE THINGS I THINK WORK IN FAVOR OF SENATOR WARNOCK.

>> Braude: ONE LAST QUESTION OF THIS -- I TRY TO BE RESPECTFUL OF ALL VOTERS, BUT I I THINK IT IS FAIR TO SAY THERE IS NO LESS QUALIFIED CANDIDATE FOR OFFICE BUT HERSCHEL WALKER.

ALMOST NO QUALIFICATIONS.

EVEN IF HE LOSES, HE WILL GET 47% OR 48% OF THE VOTE IN GEORGIA.

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

>> I THINK WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THIS IS ABOUT RAW POWER.

THE REPUBLICANS HAVE DECIDED, PART OF THE THEIR STRATEGIST WAS TWO THINGS.

ONE, THEY NEEDED TO GET A BLACK FACE, SOMEONE WHO WAS AN ATHLETE OR HAD FAME, AND PUT THEM IN POSITION.

AND THIS NARRATIVE THAT THE BLACK MAN WOULD BE UPSET, AND THOSE WOULD LEAD TO BLACK VOTERS TO GO VOTE ON THE REPUBLICAN TICKET, AND WE HAVE NOT SEEN THAT BECAUSE WE'RE FAR MORE SOPHISTICATED VOTERS THAN THEY ANTICIPATED US.

I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS EXTREMELY DISCONCERTING, BUT IT IS ALSO VERY HARMING.

THIS MAN, ONE, DOES NOT HAVE ANY SUBSTANCE.

SECONDLY, WHEN YOU HEAR HIM TALK, IN MANY WAYS HE IS INCOHERENT.

HE IS NOT INTERESTED IN TALKING ABOUT THE ISSUES AT HAND.

AND HE HAS NOT DONE ANYTHING IN THE SPACE OF LEADERSHIP THAT HAS ANY SUBSTANTIVE IMPACT OTHER THAN RUN A FOOTBALL.

>> Braude: LET'S TURN FROM THE MID-TERMS TO THE 2024 ELECTION, ON PRESIDENT BIDEN'S REC DAYS, A PANEL JUST VOTED TO MOVE BACK THE GRANITE STATE'S 2024 DEMOCRATIC ELECTION, ALL WITH THE IOWA CAUCUS, TO GIVE SOUTH CAROLINA A FIRST BITE AT THE PRESIDENTIAL APPLE.

AND IT WILL MOVE UP GEORGIA'S DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY AND OTHERS, BUT NOT DEMOCRATS ARE ON BOARD.

THAT INCLUDES FORMER STATE SENATOR FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE, JIM SPLANE.

JIM, WELCOME.

JIM, IF I COULD START WITH YOU, WHY IS IT IMPORTANT, OTHER THAN PRIDE OF OWNERSHIP, THAT NEW HAMPSHIRE STAY AS NUMBER ONE?

>> WELL, IT ISN'T ABOUT US.

IT IS NOT ABOUT US.

WHAT I CALL NEW HAMPSHIRE HAVING THE BENEFIT OF SMALLNESS.

THE BENEFIT OF SMALLNESS.

WE ARE A SMALL STATE.

GEOGRAPHICALLY, MUCH SMALLER THAN SOUTH CAROLINA OR MICHIGAN OR NEVADA, OR GEORGIA, WHERE OTHER STATES -- WHERE CANDIDATES WILL BE GOING TO OTHER STATES.

SO CANDIDATES CAN GET AROUND AND SPEND MORE TIME TALKING WITH PEOPLE INSTEAD OF HIDING BEHIND PODIUMS AND LOOKING AT VOTERS ABOVE THE PODIUM OR SITTING BEHIND CAMERAS AT TELEVISION STUDIOS.

AND THAT KIND OF FACE-TO-FACE, EYE TO EYE, ONE TO ONE CONTACT IS SO IMPORTANT, I THINK.

>> Braude: CAN IT LEAD TO AN UPCOME THAT ISN'T REPRESENTATIVE OF A CANDIDATE IS?

THAT IS NOT HOW A CANDIDATE COMPAIGNS, JOE BIDEN BEING A GOOD EXAMPLE.

THEY CAN'T GO ONE TO ONE ELSEWHERE.

DOESN'T IT GIVE ONE A FALSE SENSE?

>> NO, I DON'T THINK IT DOES.

THIS IS A BIG COUNTRY.

NEW HAMPSHIRE IS NOT THE ONLY PRIMARY STATE.

WE DON'T WANT ALL OF THE CANDIDATES' TIME.

IN FACT, IN RECENT YEARS, WE HAVE SEEN CANDIDATES SPEND MUCH TIME IN OTHER STATES, AND EVENTUALLY COMING TO NEW HAMPSHIRE.

SPENDING TIME UNTIL ELECTION DAY.

AND THEN GOING VERY QUICKLY TO OTHER STATES.

WE JUST WANT THEM FOR A LITTLE WHILE.

>> Braude: LATOSHA, ARE YOU SUPPORTIVE OF SOUTH CAROLINA BEING FIRST?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I UNDERSTAND THE SENTIMENT THAT JIM WAS RAISING, I THINK THERE IS A STRONG ARGUMENT OF HAVING A SMALL STATE.

BUT I THINK THERE IS AN ACKNOWLEDGMENT, PARTICULARLY IN SOUTHERN STATES, WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS THE OVERLOOKING OF A STATE THAT LITERALLY HAD DEMOGRAPHICS THAT ARE ACTUALLY EVEN MORE REFLECTIVE OF WHAT WE SEE IN THE NATION.

WHAT YOU'LL SEE EARLY ON, I THINK IF SOUTH CAROLINA ACTUALLY BECOMES THE FIRST STATE IN THE PRIMARY, IT WILL BRING SOME OF THE ISSUES AROUND RACE, SOME OF THE ISSUES AROUND CLASS, SOME OF THE ISSUES AROUND SOME OF THE ECONOMIC STRUCTURAL ISSUES THAT WE SEE IN THE DEEP SOUTH.

I THINK YOU'LL SEE WE'LL GIVE IT THE OPPORTUNITY TO BRING THOSE UP EARLY SO THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES WILL HAVE TO ADDRESS IT.

I THINK IT IS IN THE SAME MODEL OF WHAT NEW HAMPSHIRE STARTED IN 1975, AS WE'RE SEEING THE SHIFTS, INTRADEMOGRAPHICS OFAND THEDEMOGRAPHICS IN 2022.

>> Braude: LATOSHA, STAYING WITH YOU FOR A SECOND, I THINK IT IS FAIR TO SAY THERE PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN A PRESIDENT CARTER OR PRESIDENT OBAMA IF THERE WASN'T AN IOWA.

IF BILL CLINTON HADN'T WOKEN UP, BEHIND PAUL SONGAS, IT IS VERY LIKELY THERE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN A CLINTON, EITHER.

IS THAT A CONCERN OR NO?

>> THERE IS ABSOLUTELY A CONCERN.

THERE IS AN ARGUMENT THAT CAN BE MADE IN BOTH WAYS.

WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT NOW IS WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE WHEN WE'RE GOING FORWARD WITH MORE REFLECTIVE OF THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THE COUNTRY.

I THINK EARLY ON IT WILL CHANGE THE PRESIDENTIAL DISCUSSION, THE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEES AND THE CANDIDATES, VERY DIFFERENTLY WHEN THEY HAVE TO BATTLE FOR A STATE LIKE SOUTH CAROLINA, VERSUS WHEN THEY HAVE TO BATTLE FOR A NEW ENGLAND STATE.

I THINK THAT CHANGES THE DYNAMICS OF THE CONVERSATION.

I THINK IT CHANGES THE DYNAMICS EARLY ON AROUND THE POSITIONS OF THOSE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES.

I THINK THAT IS MORE REFLECTIVE OF THE GROWTH AND THE DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES HAPPENING AROUND THE NATION.

>> Braude: JIM, SPEAKING OF THE DEMOGRAPHICS, NEW HAMPSHIRE IS ROUGHLY 2% AFRICAN-AMERICAN, THE LARGEST CITY IS MANCHESTER, I THINK SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF 120,000 RESIDENTS.

THAT IS NOT TYPICAL OF WHAT IS THE CORE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN AMERICA.

PEOPLE OF COLOR MAKE UP A HUGE PART OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE AND URBAN AREAS ARE ALSO A BIG PART.

HOW DOES NEW HAMPSHIRE DEAL WITH THAT?

>> I AGREE WITH WHAT LATOSHA JUST SAID.

I WATCHED THE ENTIRE DISCUSSION OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY RULES COMMITTEE.

AND I HEARD THE REPRESENTATIVE TO THE COMMITTEE FROM SOUTH CAROLINA MAKE A VERY IMPASSIONED SPEECH AS TO WHY WE SHOULD BE RECOGNIZING SOUTH CAROLINA AS LEADER.

I THINK WE CAN HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF ALL.

BY STARTING IN NEW HAMPSHIRE AS TRADITIONALLY WE HAVE DONE FOR 100 YEARS, BY MANDATE SINCE 1975.

WE HAVE SEEN PEOPLE BE ABLE TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT WITHOUT SPENDING THE KIND OF MEGABUCKS THEY HAVE TO SPEND IN OTHER STATES.

NEW HAMPSHIRE IS 1.4 MILLION POPULATION, ACCORDING TO THE 2022 CENSUS.

S SOUTH CAROLINA IS THREE TIMES THAT.

AND NEVADA IS TWICE OUR SIZE, PLUS -- IN POPULATION, PLUS A VAST GEOGRAPHIC AREA.

MICHIGAN AFTER THAT AND GEORGIA, 10 MILLION EACH.

THAT'S A LOT OF PEOPLE YOU HAVE TO COMMUNICATE WITH.

YOU HAVE TO SPEND A LOT OF MONEY.

WE STAND A CHANCE IN NEW HAMPSHIRE OF ALLOWING CANDIDATES TO TALK WITH US INSTEAD OF AT US.

>> Braude: LATOSHA, THAT'S A GOOD POINT, DOING IT ON THE CHEAP, WHICH A LOT OF CANDIDATES CAN'T DO IF THEY HAVE TO GO TO MAJOR JURISDICTIONS RIGHT AT THE TOP OF THE HEAP.

IS THAT NOT A CONCERN?

>> I UNDERSTAND THE.

>> Answer: .

WE'REI UNDERSTAND THEARGUMENT.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS.

WHAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT, LITERALLY, ARE WE SHAPING THE CONVERSATION EARLY ON IN THE CAMPAIGNS, THE CANDIDACIES, AND THE COMPAIGNS THAT WE REALLY ARE TALKING ABOUT THOSE THINGS THAT WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THAT IS MORE REFLECTIVE OF THIS AMERICA THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH.

WHERE WE HAVE A YOUNGER AMERICA AND A MORE DIVERSE AMERICA.

I THINK IT IS A VERY VALID ARGUMENT AROUND I THINK IN TERMS OF COST.

BUT ALSO WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE KIND OF INVESTMENT IN SOUTHERN STATES, I THINK IT COULD MAKE THE STATE MORE COMPETITIVE.

I THINK HAVING CAROLINA EARLY ON WOULD ACTUALLY MAKE IT A MORE COMPETITIVE STATE FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

NOT IN TERMS OF THE PRIMARIES, BUT IT COULD HELP IN TERMS OF RESOURCES TO SET INFRASTRUCTURE AND MORE INVESTMENT IN THE POLITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE OF THAT STATE.

>> Braude: JIM, WE HAVE VERY LITTLE TIME.

MANY PEOPLE THINK THE OTHER REASON, OTHER THAN THE SHIFT BEING MORE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE DEMOGRAPHICS IN THE PARTY, IT IS THE BEST PATH FOR REELECTION FOR JOE BIDEN.

IF BIDEN AND HIS PEOPLE HAVE DECIDED, AS PAINFUL AS IT IS FOR YOU IN NEW HAMPSHIRE, THAT THIS IS THE BEST PATH TO RE-ELECTION, ISN'T THAT THE ONE THAT SHOULD BE EMBRACED?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW I LOVE JOE BIDEN.

I FIRST MET HIM WHEN HE WAS CAMPAIGNING IN NEW HAMPSHIRE I THINK BACK IN 1987, AT A SMALL PARTY WE HAD.

BUT HE IS NOT ALREADY RIGHT.

I THINK ON THIS ONE, HE DOESN'T QUITE GET IT.

I GET THAT NEW HAMPSHIRE MIGHT NOT HAVE THE DIVERSITY POPULATION THAT OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY HAS, BUT THAT BENEFIT OF SMALLNESS IS IMPORTANT.

>> Braude: BEFORE WE GO, LATOSHA, DOES JOE BIDEN GET WHAT JOE BIDEN WANTS AT THE END OF THE DAY?

IS THIS GOING TO HAPPEN?

>> WE'LL SEE.

WE'LL SEE.

I WISH I COULD CALL IT, BUT I CAN'T.

>> Braude: THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THE GEORGIA ELECTION TONIGHT.

>> I'M CALLING THE GEORGIA ELECTION.

NO, JIM, I'M CALLING IT.

WE HAVE WORKED TOO LONG, TOO HARD FOR THE NEXT SIX YEARS TO BE STUCK WITH A CANDIDATE WHO IS NOT INTERESTED IN SERVING, ONLY INTERESTED IN WEREWOLVES AND VAMPIRES.

>> ON THAT I AGREE.

>> Braude: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

GOOD TO TALK TO YOU BOTH.

>> THANK YOU.

NEXT UP, AS REGULAR GBH VIEWERS AND LISTENERS KNOW, I HAVE ATTEMPTED TO CHAMPION A LOT OF CAUSES, WITH LIMITED SUCCESS, LIKE YEAR-ROUND DAYLIGHT SAVING TIME, MANDATORY HELMETS FOR CYCLISTS, AND AT THE TOP OF THE LIST: A-FOUR DAY WORK WEEK.

THOUGH I'M PRETTY CLOSE TO THAT GOAL, WORKING ONLY FOUR AND A HALF MYSELF, NOW.

IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, A SHORTER WORK WEEK, I'M TALKING FOUR EIGHT HOUR DAYS, BY THE WAY, IT WOULD EASE ANXIETIES, INCREASE FLEXIBILITY AND IMPROVE THE WORK LIFE BALANCE, AS ENTREPRENEUR ANDREW BARNES TOLD ME BACK IN 2020 AFTER HE IMPLEMENTED A TRIAL RUN AT HIS COMPANY.

>> PRODUCTIVITY WENT UP ABOUT 25 TO 30%.

STRESS LEVELS DROPPED 15%.

THE ENGAGEMENT SCORES WENT UP 40% AND MORE PEOPLE SAID THEY COULD DO THE JOB BETTER ON FOUR DAYS RATHER THAN FIVE.

THE TRIAL INDICATED THAT OUR STAFF WORKED BETTER WE GOT MORE PRODUCTIVITY.

>> BRAUDE: BUT WAS BARNES' FIRM AN OUTLIER, OR THE NORM?

A RECENT STUDY ORGANIZED BY FOUR DAY WORK WEEK GLOBAL AND INSPIRED BY BARNES, ATTEMPTS TO ANSWER THE QUESTION.

THE STUDY WAS A COLLABORATION BETWEEN THREE UNIVERSITIES, ONE OF WHICH WAS BOSTON COLLEGE.

JULIET SCHOR WAS THE TRIAL'S LEAD RESEARCHER AND IS A PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY AT B.C.

SHE JOINS ME NOW ALONG WITH JON LELAND, CHIEF STRATEGY OFFICER FOR KICKSTARTER, A CROWDFUNDING SITE THAT PARTICIPATED IN THE TRIAL.

>> Braude: JULIET, JON, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> A PLEASURE.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: THANK YOU.

JULIET, COULD YOU DESCRIBE THE PILOT, THE CONSTRUCT, THE RULES OF THE ROAD IN THIS EFFORT?

>> SO WE RECRUITED COMPANIES FOR A SIX-MONTH PILOT.

TO JOIN IT, WHAT THEY HAD TO DO WAS PRESERVE FIVE DAYS OF PAY, SO FULL PAY, AND A MEANINGFUL REDUCTION IN WORK TIME.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEM WENT TO A FOUR-DAY WEEK.

THERE WERE A COUPLE WHO HAD VERY LONG HOURS, AND SO THEY SORT OF REDUCED THOSE, DIDN'T GET ALL THE WAY DOWN TO 32, BUT ALSO IMPORTANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT POINT YOU JUST MADE, WHICH WAS THIS IS NOT A FOUR 10-HOUR SCHEDULE.

IT IS FOUR 8-HOUR DAYS.

SO WE DID TWO MONTHS OF COACHING AND MENTORING AND HELPING THESE COMPANIES REORGANIZE WORK AND THEN THEY WENT INTO THE SIX-MONTH TRIAL.

AND MY TEAM DID A BEFORE AND AFTER RESEARCH DESIGN, ASSESSING HOW PEOPLE WERE BEFORE THE TRIAL STARTED, AND THEN AT THE VERY END.

>> Braude: JULIET, HOW DID YOU PICK THE COMPANIES?

>> ANYONE WHO WANTED TO JOIN PRETTY MUCH WAS ALLOWED.

SO WE DID INFO SESSIONS, AND THEY'RE SELF-SELECTED -- >> Braude: DOESN'T THAT SKEW IT IN THE DIRECTION OF THOSE WHO WERE BE MORE AMAMENABLE TO DOING IT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IT IS VERY HARD TO GET COMPANIES TO DO WHAT THEY DON'T WANT TO DO.

WE'RE HOPING WE'LL BE ABLE TO ENLIST COMPANIES IN A MORE RANDOMIZED TRIAL, BUT SINCE WE DON'T HAVE THE POWER TO CHANGE THE COMPANY'S SCHEDULES, WE CAN'T GET A TRULY RANDOM TAKE.

>> Braude: GIVE US A SENSE ON WHAT THE OUTCOMES WERE ON BOTH THE EMPLOYEE AND EMPLOYER SIDE?

>> FANTASTIC, FNTASTIC POSITIVE OUTCOMES ON BOTH.

COMPANIES ARE EXTREMELY HAPPY.

REVENUE WENT UP.

THEY RATED THE TRIAL 9.0 ON A SCALE OF ONE TO 10.

THE EMPLOYEES RATED IT A 9.1.

PRETTY MUCH ACROSS THE BOARD, EVERYTHING WE THOUGHT WOULD SHOULD IMPROVE, STRESS, ANXIETY, FATIGUE, LIFE SATISFACTION, TIME SATISFACTION, WORK/FAMILY CONFLICT, SLEEP PROBLEMS, EXERCISE, ETC., ALL PRETTY MUCH OFF THE CHARTS POSITIVE.

>> Braude: THE FIRST TIME I'VE SMILED IN WEEKS, JULIET, I WANT YOU TO KNOW.

JON, WHY DID YOU BUY INTO THIS?

WHY DID KICKSTARTER WANT TO BE PART OF THIS?

>> WE SAW THE EVIDENCE, AND THERE WAS ALREADY EVIDENCE THAT COMPANIES LIKE KICKSTARTER COULD MAKE THIS TRANSITION AND INCREASE PRODUCTIVITY.

EVERYTHING GOT UP ENDED WITH THE PANDEMIC, AND EVERYTHING REMOVED MOVED TO REMOTE.

>> Braude: WERE THE ANALOGIES INCREASED ACROSS THE BOARD?

>> YES.

WE SAW MORE ENGAGEMENT, LESS STRESSED OUT EMPLOYEES, AND PRODUCTIVITY WAS HIGHER THAN IT HAS EVER BEEN.

AND IN PART THAT'S BECAUSE EMPLOYEES ARE BETTER RESTED.

WE'RE A RELATIVELY SMALL COMPANY.

WE'RE 100 PEOPLE.

ANY TIME WITH LOSE A PERSON OR CAN'T HIRE FAST ENOUGH, IT IS A HUGE DRAG ONPRODUCTIVITY.

>> Braude: THE MAJOR CONCERN I'VE HEAR OVER THE YEARS, ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY FROM EMPLOYERS, WAS WE'RE SACRIFICING PRODUCTIVITY.

YOU HEARD JON'S EXPLANATION AS TO WHY HE THINKS IT WENT UP.

DO YOU BUY THAT?

>> I DO BUY IT.

I'M NOTU WORKPLACE CANb;W DOúéúp RID OFA REORGANIZED WORK.

PEOPLE BECAME MORE FOCUSED, LESS DISTRACTED, AND MORE EAGER TO GET THINGS DONE.

EMPLOYEES REPORTED FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE END, THEIR SELF-REPORTS OF THEIR WORKABILITY WENT UP A LOT.

THIS OTHER POINT THAT JON MENTIONED IS REALLY KEY.

>> Braude: WHAT IS THAT?

>> MANY EMPLOYERS ARE HAVING TROUBLE ATTRACTING PEOPLE AND RETAINING PEOPLE -- >> Braude: HERE IS MORE OF ANDREW BARNES, WHICH WHEN HE JOINED ME A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, TALKING ABOUT ANOTHER, I THINK, HUGE BENEFIT IMPORTANT TO PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY RIGHT NOW.

>> IF YOU DID THIS IN THE UNITED STATES, IT WOULD BE EQUIVALENT TO TAKING 10.5 MILLION CARS OFF THE ROAD EVERY YEAR.

>> Braude: THERE IS CLEARLY A HUGE ENVIRONMENTAL BENEFIT, JULIET, NO?

>> YES.

SO WE HAVEN'T QUANTIFIED ALL OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL QUESTIONS THAT WE ASKED.

WE DID FIND A REDUCTION IN THE FRACTION OF PEOPLE WHO ARE COMMUTING TO WORK BY CAR.

PEOPLE SPENDING ABOUT AN HOUR LESS A WEEK COMMUTING, SO ANDREW IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

WE ALSO WANTED TO SEE IF THERE WOULD BE ANY SORT OF BLOWBACK IMPACTS, LIKE PEOPLE TRAVELING A LOT MORE, AND THAT LOOKS LIKE IT IS NOT THE CASE.

NO INCREASE IN DOMESTIC TRAVEL AT ALL.

AND WE NEED TO DO A FEES CORRECTION WHICH WE'RE STILL WORKING ON FOR THE INTERNATIONAL.

BUT THE SORT OF ENERGY AND CLIMATE QUESTIONS THAT WE ASKED ARE ALL POINTING IN A GOOD DIRECTION.

>> Braude: JON, DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT YOUR WORKERS DID ON THAT FIFTH DAY THAT THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO DO BEFORE?

>> SURE.

I MEAN, A LOT OF THEM SPENT TIME WITH THEIR KIDS, AND WE ALL HAVE YOUNG -- >> Braude: I REMEMBER THAT.

>> WE HAVE YOUNG PARENTS AT OUR COMPANY.

SO GIVING BACK THIS REALLY PRECIOUS TIME TO SPEND TIME WITH THEIR FAMILY.

OUR MOTIVATION IS TO BRING PRODUCTS TO LIFE, AND WE HAD A LOT OF EMPLOYEES WHO STARTED THEIR OWN CREATIVE PROJECTS.

PERSONALLY, I'VE BEEN WORKING ON THE FOUR-DAY WORK WEEK ON MY FIFTH DAY.

>> Braude: STAYING WITH YOU, JON,FOR ONE SECOND.

I'M TRYING TO THINK OF WHAT THE NEGATIVES ARE, WHICH I HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO UNDERSTAND.

THE ONE DOWNSIDE IS ONE OF THE BEST SIDES OF COMING TO WORK, WHEN PEOPLE DO COME TO WORK, IS THE SOCIALIZATION THING.

NOT JUST FOR PERSONAL THINGS GOOD THINGS TO HAPPEN, BUT IT IS SORT OF THAT COLLABORATIVE THING LIFTS ALL PROVERBIAL BOATS.

IS THAT MYTH OR IS THERE ENOUGH IN FOUR DAYS TO CAPTURE WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT?

>> THERE IS ENOUGH OF IT IN FOUR DAYS, AND I THINK IT IS BETTER SUPPORTED IN FOUR DAYS BECAUSE WE'RE MORE FOCUSED AND PEOPLE ARE MORE ALIGNED WHEN THEY ARE COLLABORATING.

EVERYONE IS RESTED AND FOCUSED, AS OPPOSED TO SOME PEOPLE ARE IN IT AND ENERGIZED, AND SOME PEOPLE ARE BURNT OUT AND TIRED.

THAT IS ACTUALLY MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO WORK WITH IN AN ORGANIZATION.

AND WE ALSO WANT TO GIVE PEOPLE BACK TIME TO HAVE COMMUNITY AND CONNECTIONS WITH THEIR NEIGHBORS.

AND WE'RE LACKING SOME CIVIC ENGAGEMENT IN THIS COUNTRY THAT WE COULD BUILD BACK IN BY GIVING PEOPLE BACK SOME MORE TIME.

>> Braude: JULIET, I ASSUMED THAT THE ANSWERS JON GAVE MOO GAV MEE ME WAS ALL THAT HE GAVE ME.

I READ SOMEWHERE THAT YOU SAID THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PILOT, WAS THAT PEOPLE SLEPT ALMOST ALL OF IT?

IS THAT RIGHT?

>> THAT IS NOT RIGHT.

WE HAD SOME PRELIMINARY RESULTS ON SLEEP THAT HAVEN'T HELD OFF ON THE TRIAL.

BUT THE BIGGEST THING PEOPLE DID ON AN OFF DAY WAS LEISURE ACTIVITIES, AND VOLUNTEERING.

AND THE SECOND WAS HOUSEWORK AND TAKING CARE OF FAMILY MEMBERS.

AND THIRD WAS PERSONAL MAINTENANCE.

SO THERE COULD BE A LITTLE BIT OF SLEEP IN THERE IF PEOPLE ARE NAPPING.

>> Braude: JULIET, STAYING WITH YOU ONE SECOND.

I WANT TO SHOW YOU A POLL THAT I'M SURE WILL NOT SURPRISE YOU.

THIS IS FROM AUGUST OF 2021 OF AMERICAN WORKERS.

IPSOS, DO YOU SUPPORT A FOUR-DAY WORK WEEK, 70% YES, AND 9% NO.

HOW REACTION IS HOW PAM PATHETIC IT IS THAT WE NEEDED A PANDEMIC FOR A LARGER NUMBER OF EMPLOYERS TO BE WILLING TO LOOK AT A FOUR-DAY WORK WEEK.

WAS IT FEAR?

WAS IT, WE STAY WITH WHAT WE CAME TO THE PARTY WITH?

WHY DID WE NEED A PANDEMIC TO START LOOKING AT THESE THINGS?

>> WELL, JIM, I THINK YOU CAN SAY THIS ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS IN THE AMERICAN WORKPLACE.

I THINK OUR EMPLOYERS ARE -- THEY'VE GOT WRONG OPINIONS ABOUT UNIONS AND WORK TIME SCHEDULES, ABOUT PAY, ALL SORTS OF THINGS.

WE REALLY NEED A STRONGER LABOR MOVEMENT TO HELP EMPLOYERS SEE THAT THINGS REALLY CAN BE DIFFERENT.

AND WHEN THINGS ARE BETTER FOR WORKERS, THEY'RE ALSO BETTER FOR BOSSES.

>> Braude: SO LET'S END WITH A NOTRUS DOMUS MOMENT, STARTING WITH YOU, JON.

HOW FAR IS THIS GOING TO SPREAD THAT YOU ARE HAPPY WITH AND, ACCORDING TO YOU, JULIET, EVERY EMPLOYER IN THE FUTURE IS HAPPY WITH.

IS THIS THE WORKPLACE OF THE FUTURE?

>> I THINK SO.

LOOK AT THE A.I.

ADVANCES THAT ARE COMING OUT EVERY WEEK NOW.

WE NEED TO FIND A DIFFERENT WAY TO WORK.

AND WE SHOULD BE CAPTURING THESE GAINS TO GET BACK TIME IN OUR LIVES.

I THINK IT WILL HAPPEN OVER THE NEXT DECADE.

>> Braude: JULIET, HOW ABOUT YOU?

>> I THINK WE'RE EVOLVING TO IT, MAYBE TOO SLOWLY.

BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAKES ME THINK THAT, THINK ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING FRIDAYS IN THE SUMMER.

FEWER AND FEWER PEOPLE IN THE OFFICE.

I THINK IT IS JUST THE BEGINNING OF A KIND OF SNOWBALL EFFECT.

>> Braude: FROM YOUR TWO LIPS TO EVERY EMPLOYERS' EARS.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR YOUR TIME.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

AND PLEASE DON'T FORGET UKRAINE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org